reputable statistics for speedriding and speedflying

ok i've put alot of thought into it. and this is only my opinion. but i'm not pursuing this any farther. i'm happy to just keep hiking and flying the back country if it means the absolute freedom of the activity. i would hate to see it become something i would have to take a course for and have rateings and all that stuff it only costs alot of money and doesn't teach me more than i can find out through independant sources. i know this is the opposite of my origional thoughts. and i know it would generaly be a safer way for most to learn, but the more i see the way paragliding is set up the more of a foul taste it leaves in my mouth. with that note all you guys can take it where you wish, how you wish ect. but i'm logging off this site and not becoming part of the comunity. cheers, blueskies. stay free.

Too answer both of those questions:

The opinion of the ski hills at this time is that paragliding and speed flying are the same. They are OK with speedriding if we are not endangering the ski hill customers. I wouldn't want to rock the boat or awaken the giant by getting the insurance companies involved.

Like any insurance company........the HPAC insurer would try any way possible NOT to cover us in an incident. So I would say that they would not.

I have sent an email to the HPAC board for clarification. They are initially having reluctance for all the reasons we have already discussed. But are going to revisit it at the next Administrators meeting.

It could change in the future if there was an 'approved' training school in Canada that had a solid curriculum and levels of qualification specified. I'm not interested in doing that but would fully support someone who is.

I think the uncertified wing issue could be circumvented with the current confusion of testing authorities anyway. EN......DHV.....LTF.

There are many paragliders flown in Canada and worldwide that aren't using any of the 'accepted' certification groups.

Scott

Scott;
The sites that are currently open in Canada require an HPAC membership. I know that you have done a lot to secure these sites open for speed flying. The one question I did not ask you is; will the HPAC insurance cover speed flying incidents?
Greg

Hello Clarky,

There are a few ski hills in Canada that allow paragliding. If you want to approach it from that angle you can email me to discuss further.

adventures(at)heliparagliding.com

Scott

kitesurfa;

I stand corrected for Europe, but in the US/Canada no such regulations/ guidelines exist.

Yep:
This was taken from dropzone.com;
Location; Outside of Skydive San Diego
Age of deceased; 32
The mountain in question is frequented by paragliders, hikers and ground-launchers alike.

On Thursday we had bad weather. Most of the usual ground launching crew were not around. Dave went up the mountain by himself. An observer from the dz saw him trying to launch. He had a few failed attempts. He got lift and was in full fight. Keep in mind it is some distance away, so it was not possible to see toggle input. The observer stated that he had plenty of lift and altitude and then saw a hard 180. He ran to manifest and said he was pretty sure someone just crashed into the mountain. At that time several people from the dz set out on the challenging hike to find him. When he was reached, he was dead on impact. Our boys sat with him for 45 minutes until life flight arrived, verified him as deseased and extracted him from the steep incline.

Dave was flying a Pilot 150. His skydiving wing had been a 170 and he had just recently downsized to a 150. He had put a few flights on the Pilot prior to his final run.
____________________________________________________________

It was also indicated he was a rather novice speedflier/Ground launcher, and a beginner skydiver (~200jumps). I have flown these "mountains" and they are by not ideal for instruction.

IMHO lessons to be learned;
1) Never fly alone
2) Always have a rescue plan in place (ie GPS coordinates for rescue, communication to outside world.......etc)
3) Never fly in conditions/locations that excessively exceed your experience and/or ability

I won't get started on the gear, as this has already moved far enough from the OP subject

I think you've missed the point here. With out a governing body any statistics posted on speed flying are highly pron to error and are hear-say that could be skewed to a preferred opinion.

However, that being said last year I know of one speed flying fatality in the US (in San Diego). The source of speed fliers in the US are heavy rooted from the skydiving community and numbers I would estimate around 100-200. Making it 5-10deaths/1000pilots. Plus if memory serves correct there was 9 fatalities in Europe last year.

Paragliding fatalities in the US (with 10K+ pilots)
3.58 fatalities/ year SD=2.74, based on fatalities from 1993-2004, therefore 0.36 deaths/1000pilots

So yes, based on this speed flying is more dangerous than paragliding. This could be attributed to the fact that there is no governing body, setting instruction, license guidelines, equipment,monitoring and requirementsw. These are issues that an insurance company is going to look at.

I am not going to forget the reason why you want to gather this info. as it does potentially impact me. In my 7 years of speed flying I have seen an alarming trend of people with little or no training, flying in the mountains on and off resort lines. I've seen everything from; people with no aviation experience to people with basic skydiving/paragliding experience engaging in speedflying, without the appreciation that speed-flying is NOT skydiving nor is it paragliding. It is just a matter of time before an innocent by-stander gets seriously hurt or killed. By opening up more resort mountains with no governing body will only expedite said scenario, and it will be dam near impossible to get any mountain to allow speed flying after that happens.

so speedflying is more dangerous than paragliding..... please provide accurate statistics to prove the opinion, and not hear say or prefered conlusions. i'm not disscussing hpac, insurance, or weather one opinion is more accurate than the other here. forget my reason for wanting the info. lets just create a statistical data pool for speed flying. lets not get lost in how to govern the activity. lets just accumulate irrifutable facts.....an accurate history will provide objectivity and direction with out supporting a preffered conclusion. cheers.

By my count.......I know 15 speed wing owners in W. Canada. There are probably 10 more or so but that isn't necessarily including the ground launchers of the skydive world. Plus the same numbers are possible in Eastern Canada.

Scott

You've got a point about the liability issues, there is always somebody looking to sue in this country.

Perhaps a simply waiver will do for most ski hills...

What are they doing in Europe and USA to get around the legal issues????

As a member of HPAC I am aware that they probably will never bring speed flying into their fold.

Their problem is that speed wings aren't certified under any recognized organization. Neither are the harnesses. To top that off, the harnesses aren't equiped with back protection or reserve/emergency/rescue parachutes.

It always boils down to the insurance company. The company isn't willing to accept the liability of such equipment.

On the other hand.........if all speed fliers were to become members under the auspices of participating in 'paragliding' then they would have the necessary insurance that the ski hill would require. All the ski hill really wants is a way to cover their butts. Most of the time they don't know the difference anyway. But the person speedriding would be assuming liability if there was an accident. Generally not that big a deal, right? Except if you land in a field with horses that get spooked and run into a fence then need to be euthanized. What if the horses are prize jumping stallions worth big bucks? Or....if a parent has a child slam into a tree while skiing and become parapelegic while watching you swoop right in front of them?

Hey, this is N. America.

Scott

Hello Clarke,

As someone who has a fair bit of flying experience at the few ski hills that allow it in Canada, I suggest that you attempt to get them to allow 'paragliding'. Even the places that allow paragliding are still somewhat opposed to speedriding.

There is no doubt that paragliding is far safer than speed flying so it would seem that they would be more likely to say yes. Especially if they were to gather some input from the other, nearby ski hills. The big thing that the hill wants to see is proof of liability insurance. The paragliding association provides this. Speedriding has none.

Since speed flying isn't a fully regulated sport the deaths and participant numbers are merely speculation.

Email me at heliparagliding (at) persona.ca if you want to discuss this further.

Scott